July 21, 2019 at 12:53 am #11263
My honest thoughts: this beta build was better than earlier ones, weapon damage is far better, and it feels like Rune, BUT IT NEEDS A LOT OF WORK AND POLISH, more polish than is possible to do before launch. I imagine HH is working on some of these already. Nonetheless, I feel that most of the following suggestions NEED TO BE IMPLEMENTED to make the game’s combat successful. I also uploaded a Youtube video with some bugs/issues I spotted as well. It is far less comprehensive than this forum post.
FIRST AND FOREMOST – THE NETCODE NEEDS IMPROVEMENTS – hit detection was really bad. Damage sounds were played when no damage actually registered. Weapons strikes passed through enemies on occasion but didn’t register. Sometimes hits would connect but a 0 damage indicator would show. These problems did not improve when I switched from the European to US-East server. Hit and hurt boxes may also need to be adjusted if the blame is not solely due to the netcode.
(1) Scoreboards should display the server name and allow additional messages to be displayed according to the host’s wishes during server creation.
(2) Scoreboards should display players’ pings.
(3) Scoreboards should allow you to see all players in the server in some way.
(4) Weapons/consumables should not remain in your inventory after death (or game restart/map change). The only thing that should drop when dying is the weapon/shield that you were holding. Everything else in your inventory should disappear.
(5) Allow scoreboards to be used when dying/waiting to respawn.
(6) REMOVE WEAPON WEAR AND TEAR FROM DM. Weapon damage is appropriately high and people die often. This makes weapon tear negligible, to the point of not needing to exist. If point (4) is implemented above, then there should be little worry of the same weapons being used throughout the entire game, because many weapons will disappear upon death in your inventory. It’s better to remove this feature to prevent players from being confused as to why weapons somehow didn’t kill and do the expected damage in critical moment.
(7) ((IMPORTANT)) – HAVE AN EASIER WAY TO DRAW WEAPONS. I died several times because I forgot to press Alt first to change my hotkey bars. Other times, my weapons were in my inventory but not in either hotkey bar. There should be a “Classic Inventory” setting that you can toggle to unsheathe weapons regardless of where they are. So, for example, I could press 2 and it will always pull up a sword I have regardless of where it is in my inventory, and it will work even if the weapon is not in a hotkey bar. Weapons should be organized by classes here in terms of which weapon your draw first: smallest 1-hander to longest 2-hander, with the system remembering where you were in that order if you choose to change from one sword to another (just like Rune Classic). Have this same system for spears, axes and swords. The hotbar would only be used for consumables here.
(8) Allow Loki meteors/speeches to be disabled via server settings.
(9) Display chat bubbles/icons over players when they’re typing.
(10) When scrolling through servers, they should display all the players currently playing in them.
(11) There should be an option to have Deathmatch games that end after a customizable period of time, as opposed to a frag limit like there was now. The timer would obviously have to be displayed in some way in-game.
(12) Provide an auto-pick up option as a server setting (but leave pickup animations as the default DM/PvE setting).
(13) Provide game speed settings during server creation, especially for players who feel the combat and weapon swings in particular are too slow. Instead of a dropdown menu for this, allow us to input whichever number we want (e.g., 1.1, etc.)
(14) DM should display the frag limit needed to win the game either in the scoreboard or in the regular UI at the left/right top corners.
(15) As [paranoid.cutta] mentioned in his thread, it would be nice to freeze the players when someone wins the game to prevent kills post-game from messing up the ranks. Alternatively, don’t have a freeze but ensure that deaths after someone wins don’t affect the scores in any way.
(16) (Down the line) Trophies should be displayed next to players’ names (e.g., for first blood, number of headshots, throw kills, etc.).
(17) (Down the line) If we get access to admin powers in-game (which I hope we do, just like in Rune Classic), then when an admin activates admin controls mid-game, there should be some designation of admin status in the scoreboard.
(1) PAIN DELAYS ARE STILL NEGLIGIBLE! A lot of the combat was button-mashy because pain delays were not really registering. Chris said this was fixed, but I did not see improvements with 1-handers or any other weapon.
Here’s a GIF of pain delays in Rune Classic. I was trying to spam the goblin axe, one of the fastest weapons in the game (you should be able to see the GIF in fullscreen):
And here’s an example of pain delays in Rune 2:
The difference is night and day. The animations clearly show when someone is hit, when someone is staggered, and more importantly, the pain delays are registered long enough to have a meaningful impact on combat (i.e., stopping my attacks, interrupting movement). Notably, Rune Classic pain delays did not interrupt dodges. I don’t recall if hits interrupt dodges in Rune 2.
(2) REMOVE THE SCREEN SHAKE WHEN HITTING SOMEONE. I only just noticed this, but when you hit someone with a weapon, your screen shakes. This is distracting, disorienting and doesn’t complement the combat. I think it is fine to keep this feature for when you are getting hit yourself, but there should not be screen shaking when you do damage to others.
(3) [!!!MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE!!!] – 95% of weapons look and play the same, there is endless horizontal swinging, and there are no traditional combos. This problems stems from two main sources: (1) stiff animations, and (2) the lack of unique weapon attacks/combos across the board. For contrast, take a look at all the different weapon swings in Rune Classic in this Youtube video:
Most Rune Classic weapons had unique side slashes, standing strikes/strings, forwards strings, and back swings. Rune Classic had 15 main weapons and only 2 had straight horizontal slashes as forward attacks: the Viking short sword and the goblin axe, BOTH 1-HANDERS. And interestingly enough, both of those weapons had unique side slashes that you could not combo/spam by constantly pressing attack. They were one-and-done attacks. In fact, no weapon in rune classic had naturally endless combos. If you kept pressing attack, you will eventually stop and have to wait a solid 1-2 seconds before swinging again. But if you repeated the first few strings of certain weapons, like the dwarf work sword, you could get endless attacks such as the famous weave.
(right click the GIF and press “Open link in new tab” to see it in fullscreen)
Rune Classic has a great formula that Rune 2 can emulate. ONLY 1-handed weapons should have horizontal slashes as the regular frontal attacks. 2-handers, by contrast, should have X, straight vertical strikes, or something completely original as forward strikes, with options for unique standing attacks and side slashes. Side slashes for 2-handers should only be performed by left and right swings, like in Rune Classic, and should not be spammable.
ONE OTHER BIG ISSUE is that the overabundance of horizontal swings make decapitation/limb severing nearly non-existent. Rune 2 does not provide the satisfaction of aiming a blow at someone’s head and decapitating them because it’s impossible to do that with a horizontal swing. Head limb health may also be too high, since the only times I saw a head decapitation was from a throw or a fire axe attack.
ANOTHER BIG ISSUE IS THAT COMBO STRING INPUTS ARE STILL NOT PERFECT. You have to wait a solid second before pressing the mouse again to perform a follow-up attack with a weapon, even though the animation of the initial swing is almost already done. I hope the timing windows are made easier on this front. It’s difficult to combo ground strings into the air by jumping immediately after the second attack because the second attack is very difficult to time comfortably without mashing your left mouse button.
(4) DODGES SHOULD NOT CANCEL ATTACKS. When you swing and dodge mid-swing, it gets canceled out. When you jump spin, dodges cancel it out. This limits our offensive options and prevents advanced mechanics like weapon drag attacks from existing. **DODGES SHOULD NOT CANCEL ATTACKS WITH THE EXCEPTION of the jump dive attack.**
Here’s two snippets on how dodges added to the complexity of Rune Classic’s combat.
(5) Just to keep it on the record here, INTRODUCE OMNIDIRECTIONAL DODGING. I’m glad HH is working on forward dodges to provide some offensive options. But without the ability to strafe/move mid-dodge to have full flexibility with movement and have 360 degree movement, we cannot take advantage of weapon drags and are far more restricted with our movement.
(6) Jumps/jump attacks when not in full sprint SHOULD TRAVEL FARTHER WHEN HOLDING FORWARD. When you walk and jump or just begin to sprint and immediately jump, the distance covered is dreadfully short. You cannot jump far enough to attack someone or run away from an attack. The only way you can use jump attacks mid-fight is to turn around, run away, turn back, sprint for 1-3 seconds and then jump. This is silly and makes jump attacks useless other than to hit knocked down opponents. 95% of the time, I had my leg chopped off because I couldn’t jump far enough to avoid attacks.
(7) Two-parter. First, I cannot do the back hit with the sword while walking backwards for some reason. Instead of something like a dive attack, it just spams horizontal swipes. Besides the problem that weapons should not just have 1-3 different ground attacks, WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO JUMP DIVE IN ANY DIRECTION BY PRESSING THE POWER ATTACK BUTTON.
I SUPPORT NOT ALLOWING people to jump spin when moving backward. BUT a jump dive realistically can be performed in any direction in real life. Likewise, we should be able to do it as an alternative to jump spins and combo extenders off the ground by pressing the power button. This will be reminiscent of earlier Alpha/beta builds when we were able to jump dive from any direction. The issues back then I recall was that you couldn’t smoothly rotate mid jump-dive. We don’t need full 360 scoping ability here like in Rune Classic, but it shouldn’t feel as stiff to move mid-dive as it did in earlier builds.
(8) [EXTREMELY IMPORTANT] IT’S TOO EASY TO RUN AWAY FROM PEOPLE – If you’re unarmed, you can easily sprint away from others, and by zig-zagging you can avoid throws, which are the only way people can catch runners. Rune Classic avoided this in two ways: (1) small narrow maps, but most importantly, (2) dodges only worked when carrying weapons. Since dodges were extensions of movement, you could use them to catch up to runners. NOT HERE. Forward dodges in Rune 2 won’t prevent this problem since sprinting is so fast. I think HH needs to use Mordhau’s catch-up mechanic here.
If you are chasing someone who’s running away from you with their back towards you, you get a small but significant speed boost AFTER A FEW SECONDS. This stops the moment 75% of their frontal body is facing you. This speed boost should not happen immediately because this would ruin close quarters fighting where players are simply dodging away from each other to bait/flank/punish.
(9) BLOCKS NEED MAJOR ADJUSTMENTS. Sometimes when I block an attack, my enemy freezes and I get a chance to counter. Sometimes, I block and nothing happens; they swing and hit me again in less than a second. THERE IS NO CONSISTENCY. Regardless of the weapon you use to block, when a block stun actually happens, it’s always long enough for you to get hit one time. THIS SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE FOR ALL WEAPONS. The block stun should be greater depending on your weapon in relation to theirs** (I am referring to the weapon class suggestion I made before on Discord). See point 11 below for more.
(10) If you block a power attack, you should be pushed back and stunned as well, not just the attacker. While knocked back, the defender cannot use block, attack or dodge. This way hits feel like they have weight to them. The pushback should be lesser or greater than the block stun to your attacker, depending on your weapon class in relation to theirs (again, referring to my weapon class suggestion below).
(11) Stamina drain and block stun to the defender are directly related to weapon classes. For example, if you block a 2-handed hammer with a dagger or other 1-handed sword, you will be stunned longer than the attacker. Long enough to prevent you from counter attacking, but short enough to give you a tiny chance of escaping follow-up attacks. Your stamina would drop massively here as well. If you block using the same weapon class as an enemy, or use a weapon of a higher class, then blocking will work exactly like in Rune 2’s current build. BUT, if your weapon class is lower, then you lose more stamina and take more block stun depending on the class difference.
The weapon classes would be, from highest to lowest: 2-handed hammers, 2-handed axes, 2-handed swords, spears, 1-handed hammers, 1-handed axes, 1-handed swords. So blocking a 2-handed hammer with a 1-handed sword is almost suicide, while blocking with a 1-handed hammer will be less dangerous.
Games like Chivalry/Mordhau only focused on stamina drain for balancing, but this still looked silly. But by adding greater stun states to defenders as well, the game will avoid a meta of block spam, and instead prioritize footsies and dodges against slower 2-handed weapon users. It may even encourage weapon-swaps mid-combat to exploit block-happy players and reduce their stamina. This opens up a lot of strategic possibility. Ideally, shield users should also take a bit more stun and stamina drain depending on the weapon class of the attacker, though less of both if compared to weapon blocks
(12) [VERY IMPORTANT] TIMED BLOCKS ARE A MUST! The beta made this more apparent than ever before. When players are not button mashing, the game turns into a waiting game, both holding block until someone attacks, gets stunned, and then gets punished, which the other player can’t do anything about because the block stun is so long. It doesn’t matter if you jump spin, power attack or dodge because the other player can simply turn, block and punish. The block stun is the same regardless of which attack you used. Unless the hitboxes act all wonky (which they do), it’s impossible to lose as the defender here.
THAT’S WHY you SHOULD NOT ABLE TO HOLD BLOCK FOREVER WITH WEAPONS, but must time it instead, triggering a block/parry animation like in Chivalry/Mordhau that, if mistimed, open you up to punishment. This mistiming window SHOULD BE SHORTER THAN THE TIME IT TAKES TO PERFORM A POWER ATTACK, BUT LONG ENOUGH TO DO A REGULAR ATTACK PUNISH. This feature entirely avoids the whole spam block issue, allows for feints and drag attacks to exploit panic blocking, and if the collision for weapon blocking is reduced, it can encourage creative flank attacks directly against an enemy’s sides. You should be able to hold block forever with shields though, so that there’s a clear benefit to using them.
Suggestion (11)’s weapon class system would also help balance shields, incentivizing mace/axe use against shields to maximize defender stun and stamina drain. In that case, I might even reorganize the weapon classes for realism so that it’s 2-handed hammers, 2-handed axes, 2-handed swords, 1-handed hammers, 1-handed axes, spears, 1-handed swords. Spears would not do more damage to a shield than a 1-handed hammer, so this seems more realistic. 1-handed axes vs. spears is debatable.
(13) Make the nock animation for bows longer so you cannot shoot so quickly. Right now it fires like a medieval uzi. The chase mechanic in suggestion (8) will help stop bow abuse, but I think a slight shooting speed nerf is also necessary here.
(14) IMPORTANT For power attacks, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MOVE DIRECTIONS MID-SWING. ALSO DECREASE THE SPEED FOR EACH POWER ATTACK (and make the power animation for spears clearer to distinguish it from regular thrusts)
(15) Fix the power attack knockback. Sometimes it doesn’t work. Other times, players immediately get up after a knockback for no reason.
(16) [NEW FEATURE SUGGESTION] – Since knockback is pretty overpowered, here’s an idea. Allow players to roll from side to side when they’re on the ground (once the fall animation ends) by using the dodge keys. So it’ll only allow left and right dodges/slides. Once the slide animation ends, they get up. The slide distance should be enough to avoid a straight overhead attack from an enemy. Right now getting knocked down is an instant KO, which only encourages power attack spam. It should NOT BE POSSIBLE to use Runes while knocked down, which I imagine will be fixed once they have activation animations.
(17) For some reason, I sometimes do jump spin attacks while in the middle of a dodge. This should not be possible. Dodge attacks should work in two ways, in my opinion: (1) you swing and then dodge to extend and drag attacks, AND (2) if you simply dodge, you can press the power attack button to do a somewhat fast jump dive attack (the same attack you get when jumping back and attacking). Your dodge stops the moment you attack, so if you pressed attack while you’re half-way into the dodge, you will not continue flying the rest of the distance away. Instead you will stop and do a jump dive attack, which you should be able to aim a little bit by rotating your mouse mid-swing.
(18) Increase the animation length for consuming food (and apply that new extended length to rune activation as well once those animations are added in). Eating is too quick and gets abused mid-combat. When consuming runes or food, you should have reduced movement speed (so you cannot sprint or dodge, and you walk EVEN SLOWER THAN YOUR REGULAR WALK SPEED).
(19) The berserk rune SHOULD NOT give full invincibility. Even the original Rune allowed weapon attacks to reduce the length of berserk. That should be possible here as well. Otherwise, people are simply going to run away when someone pops the Rune and that makes the game less enjoyable. It should take 2-4 hits to knock someone off of berserker the moment they use the rune (and even less hits the longer the berserker lasts). If damage done to someone exceeds the “HP” of the berserk mode, then the difference in damage goes straight to the player (so you do not have to knock out berserker first, and only then can you damage the player; instead, it can happen at the same time).
(20) Kicks done while hand-to-hand should stagger/stun enemies. In fact, kicks can be incorporated as a universal attack regardless of the weapon you’re holding, and could be especially useful to stop shields if a proper knockback is incorporated.
(21) Reduce the damage of flaming weapons. Being able to almost insta-kill someone on block is a bit obscene. I also AM NOT a fan of side slashes being able to one-hit people because of the flames. IDEALLY, it would be great for X slashes of 2-handed swords to one-shot decapitate people with meticulous aiming, but one-hit kills should not be possible with side slashes.
(22) Just to reiterate, given the height of jump attacks and the ability to aim up and down, a crouch, crouch movement, crouch attack option seem even more important and relevant than ever before.
(23) The Thor hammer rune felt useless. I tried it once and it only took 20% of someone’s health, whereas the Odin and Hel runes did as much as 85-90%.
(24) Reduce the length of the 2-handed sword by a little bit. I recall Chris saying the spears would be changed to be longer. I am fine with making spears longer but having them do less damage, if that also means 2-handed swords aren’t as absurdly long as they are right now.
(25) An older point, shield blocks should work even when not pressing the block button (a la Rune Classic). If shield health is low (and DM allows only 1 shield to be carried), then this will not be abusive. Blocks done this way should not stun attackers (but possibly stun defenders, especially after a power attack), unlike pressing block which will stun attackers. It’s more realistic to not allow weapons to pass through shields when block is not used
(26) Jump spins and jump dive attacks should do more damage to be worth the risk of losing your leg and insta-dying.
(27) Add A LOT MORE verticality to the axes’ and hammers’ jump spins (i.e., make them much more unique). The attacks look very similar to sword jump spins, and because their jump spins are nearly parallel to the ground, you can’t really hit anyone with them. By having them be significantly more vertical than swords and spears, they’ll stand out and offer players different options with air combat.
(1) Sometimes when you press a button to draw a weapon mid-swing, it doesn’t pull the weapon up after your animation finishes (e.g., after a fist attack). Had this happen in a lot of critical moments, which made me die as a result.
(2) As the Rune 2 bug Youtube video shows, animations need a lot of polishing, including the climb animation where the player’s legs are somehow frozen stiff.
(3) Provide an option to skip the game’s intro.
(4) Chests opening with door sounds are pretty funny. Maybe use a more chest-like sound? 😀
I really look forward to eventually being able to disable the damage indicators and weapon swing arts, and for there to be pickup animations and rune activation animations.
Thanks again for the opportunity to test the game, and thank you Chris in particular for extending the run time of the servers to accommodate our schedules. If these many changes are implemented, I foresee a fantastic combat system. As it stands, the game is not in release-ready state.
July 21, 2019 at 6:31 am #11267
July 21, 2019 at 9:41 am #11268
Extremely solid and thorough write-up as usual! Since I agree with 90% of it I’m not gonna comment point-by-point, but rather just on the points where I have additional or different thoughts.
Haven’t played Mordhau yet really so can’t comment on what the catch-up mechanic feels like. It sounds like a good idea though, and I’d add that being able to attack while sprinting, resulting in a lunge attack would be a huge aid once you catch up with said yellowbelly. What are your thoughts on that?
Definitely agree on different weapon classes affecting stuns, stamina drain etc, and agree HUGELY on timed blocks for weapons! I still think shields should have a timed block mechanic as well. I mean, simply holding block would stop the damage for sure, but if you time your shield block, THAT is when you make your opponent recoil. I also wonder whether power attacks should be able to knock down shield blockers (all blockers?). Perhaps timing a block against a power attack would simply stagger you slightly along with the attacker, like you said, but failing the timing would knock you down, but take no damage.
Also, what do you think about holding block with shield slowing you down slightly? Not a huge amount, but enough to make a difference. I dunno, I want shield blocking to be useful, but not simply a passive thing where you keep the button held down, but rather have some level of reaction be required to truly get the most out of it. Due to the fact that weapon blocks in this case would be timed affairs, the slow-down would be a non-issue with them.
Totally agree about making kick available at all times! While talking unarmed, I personally feel unarmed attacks need a damage boost to be a little more threatening to someone with full health. I also suggest a new forward jump attack, like a superman punch or something rather than the spinning one, and the standing one to be a heel stomp. I’ll put these things in my own thread as well.
Talking about adding crouching… I’m strongly opposed to adding a dedicated key for the power attack. I’d much rather keep one single attack key and use a modifier key for that, and in this case, Ctrl, which is by default listed as power attack I believe, is usually used for crouching too. I think we’re pretty much agreed forward + crouch + attack should trigger the power attack/lunge, and if so, do you agree pressing ctrl + attack in the air should trigger the dive attack? Feels highly logical to me, what with ctrl being the duck key which brings you closer to the ground. Maybe that’s just me.
Finally about your point on opening chests:
I liked in the earlier tests when you just booted the chest in with a satisfying crunch! XD
Felt like a very Rune way to handle it.
That’s all I had to comment on really. Totally agree with everything else, and your points are masterfully organized and put forward! Huge kudos!
July 21, 2019 at 12:28 pm #11286
Lots of really, really good feedback here. I’ll make sure Chris and the rest of the dev team see it.
July 21, 2019 at 12:39 pm #11287
2 – This is needed to see if it indeed is a hit registration problem or a user is lagging badly causing a poor experience for the rest of the server.
4 – Hard to believe this is a thing considering the previous rune. Seems like you dropped some Battle Royale ingredients in my Rune pie.
4a – There should technically be no inventory in PVP. The hotbar slots are fine. The big inventory is a big no-no.
6 – All PVP, not just DM.
9 – Any kind of signifier of typing/menuing would be great.
2 – Screen shake for me is an immediate “off” setting. Same thing for pain flashes, floating combat numbers and floating health bars. Names are okay because I like to see who I’m fighting. Tells me when I should start pissing myself.
3 – This is the biggest downfall of this game for me personally. Without different weapon combos, it just comes down to who has a lower ping and can left click faster. Without pain delays, I feel like blocking is pointless, which it should not be. Blocking should also have to be timed with other weapons instead of “hold right click to block everything.”
4 – This blends with number three so I’ll just say that I love bop but no one will see it because it won’t be read anyhow.
8 – I think the optimal solution for this would be some kind of bleed-out mechanic where the runner loses blood slowly at first then more rapidly the longer they’re alive without stopping to heal. The catch-up mechanic would also work.
9-12 – Oh look, I already talked about blocking. I’m better than I thought.
18 – I feel like this could go either way with slowing the player or stopping them entirely. Could also make it a server variable speed.
25 – I’m kind of surprised this wasn’t already in.
I omitted all the other comments as they were all somewhere in the ballpark of “I agree.” If I disagreed, I’ll specifically have said why.
July 21, 2019 at 11:00 pm #11298
I think there are some good points made here, but details aside, the only points I want to reiterate are what I think are the current fundamental flaws of the (multiplayer) game.
– Netcode. All fixes aside, this was the one single aspect that ruined the beta experience for me. Without fixing this, I don’t believe anything will save Deathmatch. Client-side feedback was highly inaccurate.
– Weapon combos. There are very few attack options. With the exception of jump attacks, it seemed like the spear only had one attack? And other weapons only had 2 – 3? I would strongly encourage re-implementing the 4-way directional attack combos that Rune Classic had since it added so much variety to the combat.
– Hit stun / pain delay. This feature is what allows a short sword user to kill a battle hammer user. This feature is also what prevents the clusters of random attack-spamming players. This is really the basis behind why a player can be skillfully offensive. All that is required is that the hit stun be slightly longer than the time it takes for the attacker hit them again.
With that, I think it’s useful to also point out what I think the game is doing right for Deathmatch:
– Fast-paced movement. I was happy to see that this was not lost. When I’m moving around I don’t feel like I’m dragging a lead weight with me like I do in nearly all other melee games. It still maintains a little bit of the Quake feel, and that’s one of the best parts about Rune.
– Player always maintains some degree of control over their character, even while attacking.
– Rune powers add to the melee combat rather than detracting from it like the rune powers in Classic did.
– Bows show a lot of promise to significantly alter Deathmatch without ruining the melee aspect.
July 22, 2019 at 9:10 pm #11308
Here are 35 more suggestions/comments/responses to others’ points:
(1) Servers should display a message somewhere (not necessarily in chat) when someone joins or leaves.
(2) As an initial FIRST STEP in fixing the issue of it being too easy to run away in this game, IF SOMEONE SPRINTING GETS HIT MID-SPRINT, THE SPRINT SHOULD BE CANCELED AND THERE SHOULD BE A 1-2 SECOND COOLDOWN BEFORE SPRINT CAN BE REACTIVATED. This will give chasers a good 1-2 seconds to catch up to the runner. Throws, grenades (including frost/fire pits and poison effects) and melee strikes should all be able to interrupt runners this way. ALSO, if you sprint jump towards someone (for example, you want to jump spin them), you SHOULD NOT have your sprint canceled mid-air. But you should still suffer the 1-2 second sprint cooldown penalty after you land on the ground.
CREDITS TO MITINZ for bringing that up. /topic/first-impressions-of-the-beta/
(3) When you die, you should somehow see who killed you. The kill notifications on the right side don’t mention your deaths for some reason.
(4) I forgot to bring this up in my first post, but when I suggested the jump dive attack should be possible in any direction, I forgot to mention that any blocks of jump dive attacks SHOULD REGISTER AS BLOCKING A POWER ATTACK. So if my blocking suggestions are implemented, this means jump dives would do a lot more stun and stamina drain against opponents, which is perfectly fair since they’re extremely high-risk attacks and are very hard to aim. BY CONTRAST, blocking jump spins should register as blocking a regular attack.
(5) To respond to Torulf McBeard, I’m fine with having the power attack be triggered by Shift+left mouse or whatever you keybind it to, assuming we have crouch. However, even in Rune Classic I used “C” for crouching so I’m not against having a dedicated button for the power attack either.
(6) To McBeard’s other question, if timed weapon blocks are a thing, then slowing movement somewhat for shield users holding block WOULD BE A GREAT AND REALISTIC IDEA. In my ideal Rune 2, shields would also block hits without pressing the block button, so the only reason why someone would ever hold block is to cause block stun on attackers. Shields would do less stun to the defender (and drain less stamina) than timed blocks with weapons, and if shields are struck by certain weapon classes while the player does not hold block (e.g., by 2-handed hammers), it will cause a stagger to the defender – a significantly longer stagger than had they held block.
The small speed decrease would be a great way to balance shields against smaller weapons, make power attacks more useful as ways to open up defenders (because they would have more hit stun against blockers than regular attacks), and it will incentivize clever dodges and jump attacks to bypass shield users. Shield carry restrictions and low shield health in DM will be the icing on the cake, making shields very powerful, but non-exploitable.
(7) To McBeard’s last point, there technically already is a lunge attack you can use while in sprint to catch people – the jump spin. It works quite well actually if you time it the moment the runner loses stamina. I don’t think a special sprint attack needs to be made. Better to devote HH’s time and resources to making brand new regular swings/combos for the weapons. Suggestion two in this post will only make jump spins even more invaluable tools to catch runners.
(8) There should be some indicator, on the scoreboard or in the left/right top corners of the general UI, of the frag limit and your progress towards it, which you should be able to enable/disable (if it’s not in the scoreboard).
(9) Hand-to-hand combat should do at least twice as much damage. I am a strong advocate of DM suggestion (4) to remove all inventory upon death; BUT to make it fair to players who spawn without weapons, fist damage should be significantly higher (just like how the hand axe players spawned with in Rune Classic could kill people in 3-4 hits in Deathmatch). People will always complain about spawn killing, but that’s part of the carnage and learning curve (which is why Arena mode will always be a great alternative when it’s released). This damage suggestion, plus plentiful and smartly placed spawn points in maps, will be sufficient to avoid obscene spawn killing.
(10) I completely agree with Emmix that PAIN DELAYS, NOT DAMAGE, was what made 1-handed weapons (broad sword aside) viable against 2-handers in Rune Classic. I made a GIF to show this in action so that it can be a useful reference for HH.
(11) When using the teleport Rune, it usually moved me only a few centimeters forward even though there was clearly space far ahead of me. Is it possible for the game to prevent you from activating the rune when it’ll teleport you a paltry distance forward? This way the rune won’t be wasted and you won’t have your movement slowed down and restricted by the activation animation.
(12) Brief comment: while I look forward to traditional combos and many more attacks for each weapon, I wanted to say that I am a fan of the current ability to transition from a regular swing into a power attack. Because the animations are so janky, sometimes this transition happens in less than a millisecond ( in fact, the transition appeared to make power attacks faster than if you simply activated them raw), but once that’s all fixed and polished, it’ll be a great way to diversify and add depth to combat.
(13) Many times after killing someone and running over them, you take damage for no reason, often accompanied by a stone pounding/clanking sound. Sometimes you take damage in this manner just by walking through terrain. I still don’t understand why that happened.
(14) Power attacks’ active frames seem to be too long (unless it’s a Netcode problem) because I’ve killed players and 1-2 seconds later, I get knocked down by their last-ditch power attack. Other times someone would do a power attack, their attack would fully extend, at which point I walk forward to counter attack, and somehow I still get hit and knocked by their power attack even though their animation is frozen for over .5 seconds.
(15) I kept hearing that you heal and are safe inside buildings. But I never healed when going inside the map’s buildings (I never built my own), and I always took damage from others’ hits while inside buildings, regardless of whether I was by the entrance, the opposite end, or the corners.
(16) In PvP, you should never have to spend time in-game to sift through your inventory. To that end, arrows should not take up a hotkey slot. Instead, I think it’ll be best to have a separate icon pop up near the hotbar ONLY WHEN A BOW IS EQUIPPED. I made an example image. The icon is likely too small here but you get the idea. The icon should be distinct in some way.
(17) Like others mentioned in these forums, I also spotted moments where people could block while eating food. I also saw people dodging and sprinting while eating food. In fact, there were moments where I’d press to eat food and accidently dodge right after, which would force a dodge, cancel the eating animation, spend my entire consumable, and not give me any health. None of this should be possible.
(18) Regarding the Thor rune, I was only able to damage people directly in front of the hammer, but no one in the blue circle that pops up ever take damage. This needs to be fixed alongside the lackluster damage (and maybe also add cooler visuals for the area of effect).
(19) Also on the topic of Runes, some of them look alike. I can easily tell the berserk, health and stamina runes apart, but the blues, purples and any other overlapping god rune (most notably, the Thor rune) made it a little bit confusing. I believe the god runes had yellow/gold borders in their icons but it’s too subtle in my opinion. Having all unique and contrasting rune colors may be easier here than icon borders.
(20) Like others, I also had times where I would swim and press a number to pull up a weapon from my hotbar as soon as I swim ashore, but the weapons rarely come out. This issue happens mid-fights as well at random moments, especially when I press the button to change weapons in the middle of my attack animation. In those instances, I’d have to press it again after my animation ended to finally change weapons/use consumables.
(21) Since I recently discovered that hits actually do reduce the length of berserk, a berserk meter should appear when in berserker mode. ALSO, berserk meter should reduce in proportion to the damage of weapons hitting the player, with any left-over damage going straight to the player if the berserk effect gets knocked down by a hit. Every weapon should not reduce the same amount of berserk meter. It will be silly for a fist to reduce the same length of berserk as a 2-handed hammer.
(22) I already brought up unique weapon swings more generally but I wanted to emphasize that the 2-handed hammer, 2-handed axe and trial pit mace in particular should all have uniquely different forward swings. They all share the same unwieldy X swings at the moment. Those X swings can be left with the trial pit mace, but I definitely think the 2-handers should have something more complex and original.
(23) The block animations should appear faster and look more pronounced. They’re too subtle and don’t really convey that someone is guarding. Knockback/feedback animations from hits need to be added in to convey that the person guarding absorbed some force from their enemy’s attack.
(24) Question: Is it possible to aim up and down during a combo extender into the air (or a regular attack followed immediately by a jump), similar to how you can aim weapons up and down while you’re in the ground? I don’t believe so. I was testing this with McBeard in the first day of beta testing. I tried to do side swipe in the ground followed by a jump, but whether I tried to aim the mouse down or not, I could never hit McBeard. The camera positioning was very awkward but it definitely seems like I had no option to aim any further once I was in the air. Check the GIF below. Could vertical weapon aiming be added for combo extenders into the air, regular attacks followed by jumps, and maybe even jump spins?
(25) Will there be activation animations for chests, and if so, will the god chests have a longer opening time, for realism because of their size, and suspense and fairness given their value? Will you have the option to cancel the chest opening attempt?
(26) Question: Chris said there will be 10-15 weapons at launch for DM. So far we’ve only seen 8 (not counting fists, elemental weapons, runes and grenades). What other weapons can we expect?
(27) If my knockdown rolling idea (combat suggestion 16 in the first post) cannot be implemented, then reduce the damage of power attacks so it’s not a guaranteed one-hit KO once you knock someone down and stab them once with the 2-handers.
(28) How do the hitboxes on arrows and throws work? When I aim for a leg or a foot it seems to always be blocked, even though the enemy’s weapon/shield is nowhere near their legs.
(29) Fist blocking SHOULD NOT CANCEL OUT DAMAGE FROM ARROWS AND THROWS. It should reduce damage by around 10-30% but that’s about it.
(30) All grenades should do more damage given their rarity.
(31) Question: If you jump off a height that would normally kill you but land on top of another player’s head, what happens? Do you both die? Does he die but you survive? Does he explode, etc.? If they don’t die, that will be very unfortunate.
(32) Question: Will we have access to the console on launch as non-admin players in servers, so that we can do simple modifications like changing our field of view, similar to how James did it in a previous Developer Stream?
(33) Out of curiosity, does HH have plans to include crazy intense screams after each attack swing in berserker mode like in Rune Classic? That was one of the most memorable and hilarious aspects of the game.
(34) Just to have it on the record (albeit for the 4th/5th time – Sorry :D), Rune Classic-esque weapon clashes/parries would be amazing here, especially if accompanied by appropriate parry animations and spark effects during the moments of impact. It would create sudden tension, save or break players in unexpected critical moments, and it would visually elevate the combat by a strong margin.
(35) [NEW FEATURE IDEA] This is definitely a post-launch suggestion but it would be entertaining if we could pick up entire corpses to use as meatshields, reminiscent of the popular tweaked Runes Classic mod from back in the day.
For Rune 2, the body would be held with both hands, it would take longer to pick up than regular weapons, it would slow your movement speed (and you’d have slower sprint speed), and it would absorb a good amount of damage (and would show physical “wear and tear” after each hit against it). It could not be used to attack but it can be thrown for short distances to do a tiny bit of damage. It would not be able to go to your inventory and would drop straight to the ground if you switch weapons/used a consumable. The potential here is boundless 😀
July 23, 2019 at 4:32 am #11309
Yoyo, another amazing list man! I’m just point out something:
(15) – I believe the no-attacking feature is for PvE, against A.i., because there it worked on beta.
(16) – That’s a good idea for not puting arrows onto the Action Bar. As I also had issues with it I was thinking about a filtering option (which is suggested in my post) where players can decide what should the Action Bar rule out when picked up. Another suggestion would be about the Action bar bracket/heading filter option, where the player could decide which heading would display what type of Items from your inventory: for example you could decide that one heading is for weapons only, so it will always put weapons into that heading (so whenever you lose that weapon the system will automaticly put the next weapon from your inventory into that heading). Same would apply to consumables; if you choose to use a heading only for consumables you will always have consumables in that heading.
This way the Inventory usage could be toned down a bit as it would slow down your fast-phased gameplay.
(*) – I also suggested in one of my post to be able to move while you are in inventory. I know that the controls are different for it than for World of Warcraft for example, but since you will have a cursor in Inventory, if you hold mouse button on your character/game screen you could be able to move the camera and move with AWSD.
I always love your feedbacks, so elaborative and sophisticated. Keep it up my man!
July 24, 2019 at 4:14 pm #11321
Thank you Bringer of Pain!!! *bows*
July 25, 2019 at 3:41 pm #11325
God dang man, so many points! Poor HH can’t catch a break with you! 😛
You’re bringing up more awesome stuff, and I’m happy you agree with some of my ideas.
Honestly, I don’t think I ever actually tried to sprint jump-spin a runner, so had no idea that was effective! Good to know!
Firstly, I’m gonna unashamedly copy/paste my last update to my own thread because – let’s face it- THIS thread is gonna be the go-to thread for most people to read feedback. So here goes:
Blocking with weapons should be a timed block, meaning you can’t hold block down indefinitely. This will prevent a lot of block spamming and promote feints and such, encouraging more skillful playstyles.
Shields however should be able to block indefinitely, and when hit will absorb damage. However, to get the most out of it and, again, encourage more skillful play, I’d suggest giving shield blocks a timed mechanic as well, where actually timing your block doesn’t just block the damage, but also staggers your opponent.
More on blocking: Activating block should look snappier. Particularly the shield block activates sooooo very slowly. The block mechanic itself seems to be quicker than the animation though, so it’s just the animation that needs sped up. I also think blocking with a shield should slow your movement slightly. Not a huge amount, but enough to make a bit of difference. I also think (and this is visual fluff only) that blocking, particularly with a shield, should have the character take a more braced stance. Feet wider apart and a little hunkered down. But this is totally nitpicking.
Unarmed fighting is awesome, but it does so little damage that’s it no real threat to anyone with full health. I feel unarmed attack damage should be doubled as a minimum. I also suggest changing the forward jump attack to something like a superman punch rather than the spinning one, which looks weird, and the standing jump attack/dive attack to a heel stomp, for that extra brutal flavor.
I also second Bringer of Pain’s suggestion (along with almost all his points!) to make kick available at all times, not just when unarmed! This begs the question whether Unarmed needs a new power attack though, and what that would be. Maybe a brutal jump forward with a headbutt 😛
Lastly, I think I have realized finally why I dislike the blue outline around weapons/pickups so much. I think it’s because when you kill someone, you immediately see this outline around severed arms or heads or weapons they drop, and it pops out so clearly that it distracts you from the glory of the kill. You don’t really see the trail of blood from the arm flying through the air. You just see an arm-like objects surrounded by a blue glow.
This is why I think that blue glow needs to go, or have it bound to a key to highlight objects just like in Diablo II. That would be a good compromise, I think.
Now to comment on some of your points, with some additional thoughts;
(12) The ability to transition into power attack is really nice! Likewise, I find the way your dodge cancels attacks to be hugely useful and feels really good to do. It actually gives some ability to feint.
Very much like this.
(16) Agree so much about inventory management being a no-no. The main inventory should just be disabled entirely, and the hotbar slots should be the only inventory we have for DM (and even that’s a bit much IMHO).
I would actually love to see two types of food items. Those that heal less, but can go in inventory slots, and those that heal more but are used on pickup, just like in Rune Classic. We have runes scattered about the map to be picked up, so surely food items like joints and big mugs of mead can be made and placed in the world as well, respawning after a short while after someone use them.
And a sidenote about food items in slots; limit food items like drinks/meat/lizards to 1 per slot! Same with runes.
Good call on arrows not going in slots too.
(19) I want to add that each rune should aspire to have a unique runic symbol as well. If you run out of runes that make sense, just make something up or combine a few runes to a bindrune to make sure each one is unique.
Couple of examples here:
(23) Super-agree in this one! Like I mentioned above, snappier activation of block animation and a more braced, hunkered down stance when blocking would be awesome, and feedback on blocks is a HUGE must! It would add so much weight to the whole deal, and enhance the feeling of blocking and combat in general immensely!
(25) Not a huge fan of activation times. Especially not in a game like Rune II. What I WOULD suggest is that activating a chest would trigger the old kick animation, as I felt that was a better fit for Rune II anyway. Small, normal chests would open as you’d expect with one press of the button. God chests, however, would require maybe 3 successive kicks to break them buggers open! So three (3) separate presses of the use-key. I’m not sure whether the number of kicks should reset for each player trying to open it, or if they should be persistent. For example; Player 1 runs up to the chest and kicks it twice, but gets killed by Player 2. Should Player 2 now have to apply 3 kicks anyway, or just the 1 kick to break it open? If it persists, I’d suggest adding some effect to the chest to show what stage it’s in. Like, totally sealed when untouched. Some slight glow showing through a crack after one kick, and a very strong, pronounced glow after two kicks. So if you see one with a strong glow coming from the crack, you know it just needs one more boot.
What do others think would work best?
(31) This is such an important question! I haven’t tried jumping on people yet in Rune II, but in Classic it was a hoot! I’d love to see it expanded! Ideally, I think if you jump on someone from a height that would normally kill you, you survive but take maybe half damage, but the poor sod you landed on obviously dies.
I also want to add that for jumping on top of players from high enough to kill them, I would LOVE for a brutal, wet, bone-crunching sound-FX to play! Ideally, he’d also just be pummeled into the ground in a ragdolly mess of broken limbs. But that’s just wishful thinking! 😀
(33) YES! I would love that and totally support this idea! In fact, I’d love if the sound effects of the weapon swings were modified as well to sound even more forceful. The heavy breathing should also return.
I dunno, the current effect with the red runes floating about you is really cool and all, but it doesn’t feel right. Adding these suggestions above, along with the return of the red eyes would be very awesome though. It just needs to have more feeling of…. savagery, I guess!
Speaking of intense screams, I’d love if your character made a drawn-out, crazed, bloodthirsty, blood-curdling madman-scream if you sprint while berserk! That. Would. Be. EPIC!
(34) Totally agree! Even without new animations, just adding the sound of weapons clashing and a small shower of sparks would be more than enough. Would be such a neat little thing to have happen now and again!
(35) Yeah, now we’re talking! I remember suggesting the exact same thing way way back! It just feels like the natural evolution of Rune. In Classic we could cut off limbs and pick them up for various purposes. In Rune II we should totally be able to pick up corpses too! As BoP said, obviously too big to put in inventory, so both hands would be holding the corpse, slowing you down but also working as a meatshield. Totally support this idea! I will add though, that if this corpse is thrown off a wall or cliff or whatever, and it actually falls on another player, it should kill them if it fell from high enough! Something like this would be damn hard to pull off, and more likely to happen by chance. But IF corpse-carrying/throwing is implemented, and IF you manage to throw it on someone from high enough…. there’d better be some payoff for that feat! XD
That’s the kind of brutal insanity I want from a new Rune game! And I agree wholeheartedly that the potential there is boundless!
Other items could be added to use the same mechanic, slightly modified in some cases. Large boulders, barrels, stumps, wood-chopping blocks, etc etc. Even more potential there!
A final thought: I’m not a fan of the current health and stamina bar placement. I felt it was better before when health was vertical to the left a la Rune Classic. Made it easier to keep an eye on in my experience. Maybe scale it up a little bit too.
Oh, and while on the subject; Replace the heart and lightning bolt icons with runic ones for those bars! Give them the corresponding rune you find on runes of health/stamina. I’m sure most people wouldn’t be confused.
It would be such a small change, but do so much for the character of the game.
So yeah! Guess that’ll do it for now! I’m pretty sure I was going to bring something else up, but forgot what that was.
July 26, 2019 at 12:35 pm #11329
Awesome suggestions, fellas! Let me also add two cents.
– Falling from heights and having something fallen on you should knock you down. The heavier, the worse.
– Absolutely love the idea of side-rolls and maybe backward rolls when knocked down. So there’s a chance to avoid certain death. This is one kind of skill you need to learn in SP, as i suggested earlier and absolute must for DM. And maybe add the ability to throw your weapon when knocked down, so you will pose some threat, not being an easy and motionless target.
– For meatshields, i dunno. All the games that feature corpse carrying/dragging add a ton of disadvantages to the mechanics – lowered speed, both arms occupied, no jumping, slow turning. Why adding this for intense action game, not stealth game i cannot quite understand. Needs extra thinking IMO.
Cheers! Didn’t have a chance to play these last tests but hope to join later.
July 26, 2019 at 6:18 pm #11330
A lot of items have already been touched on by the group in this thread that I wanted to discuss, so well done to you all.
I will probably repeat some, but I will try to keep it to things that have not been mentioned:
1) Is the intention for limb severing / decapitation to only be during death? Plenty of funny moments in classic Rune from chasing people with severed limbs, only to find their teammate or another player. I can see how the randomness of severing can be frustrating, so maybe it will need to be more defined, but i’d like to know what is intended.
2) Divine chests should not be random drops in random areas – in my opinion they should maybe be based on a timer and possibly based on a certain location to increase the chances of an all out brawl. Chests shouldn’t be an automatic loot, they should have a small 1-2 second timer so that someone cant just run in and loot it, it has to be won.
3) I believe this has already been addressed, but a forward dodge and the ability to swing during dodges will be huge for the feeling of combat (as long as it feels natural). In beta swinging and dodging sideways felt very unnatural because it was a hard cut to the right or left even though I had forward momentum.
4) I also believe that this was addressed in the vein of more weapon animations, but specifically the battle axe should have a more vertical jump attack (my opinion). I know that the stab attack is meant to take its place and you don’t want the jump attack to do both but the horizontal swing on the battle axe felt odd (maybe I am too used to classic swings).
5) The warhammer jump swing – I like the look of it, but the recovery of the strike is far too slow. Having the weapon swing around and the rest on your shoulder for that 1/2 to 1 second absolutely killed all my momentum with the weapon, and it didn’t do enough damage to warrant the pause.
6) Jump attacks should do more damage, especially with larger weapons. Maybe not 1 hit kills but it should be more damage than a horizontal slash that you can spam.
7) Grenades did not do enough to really matter, the strongest one would be the ice grenade but it was only powerful if you had a bow or against someone running because if you go in to engage you get slowed yourself!
8) Fire weapons are too strong for how random it is to acquire one. Make it something to be earned. (second point).
9) Critical attacks – I saw these popping up a few times, is there a certain way to aim for them or are they randomly based?
I’d like to agree with Emmix that the pacing feels good. Sometimes when swinging a weapon I could feel it slow down, but the movement speed felt right, and the overall feel of combat was great.
I did not have many issues with the hot bar – in fact I liked it quite a lot, great improvement. I rarely had to go into my inventory, but I did try throwing weapons quite a bit, but I can see what is being said about it being awkward to go into inventory in the middle of a fast paced DM game.
August 2, 2019 at 1:55 pm #11333
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